amped0808Hall of Fame16,539 posts amped0808Hall of Fame I get the point of expanding the playoff field. I mean that should be a serious topic of discussion going forward to open it up to 32 teams but right now we only have 63 total 8-man programs. Also mind you there is a bunch of schools that are well above the 8-man cutline that aren't eligible for postseason play along with a few (WIAA needs to do a better job vetting teams that are just starting up athletic programs) that don't even have a football program up and running that trims it further. As for a nine game schedule, I would also think there has to be a bit more teams before that becomes a thing. Can't have scheduling nightmares because of a lack of teams. As someone that has known a school's football coaching staff that switched their program to 8-man this year, they had to schedule a UP team because it was hard to bring someone up to them. I don't seem to have any issue with Wisconsin Rapids being used as the 8-Man Final. Central location within the state for all the 8-man programs. Plus I can mention that Michigan holds their 8-Man Championships (104 teams in 2 divisions to boot) in the Superior Dome in Marquette while all the 11-man games are held at Ford Field in Detroit. In short I think 8-man is very close to a switch on a few things stated above but with more teams slated to drop down, that could accelerate that switch. 2013 WSN HOF Inductee, 2014 Derek Lendosky Poster of the YearWissports HOF CoordinatorOnce a Warrior, Always a WarriorWLC Men's Tennis CoachWLC Men's Tennis: 2013-14 Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference Tournament Champions (13-10)Twitter
sirencoachVarsity105 posts sirencoachVarsity I get the point of expanding the playoff field. I mean that should be a serious topic of discussion going forward to open it up to 32 teams but right now we only have 63 total 8-man programs. Also mind you there is a bunch of schools that are well above the 8-man cutline that aren't eligible for postseason play along with a few (WIAA needs to do a better job vetting teams that are just starting up athletic programs) that don't even have a football program up and running that trims it further. As for a nine game schedule, I would also think there has to be a bit more teams before that becomes a thing. Can't have scheduling nightmares because of a lack of teams. As someone that has known a school's football coaching staff that switched their program to 8-man this year, they had to schedule a UP team because it was hard to bring someone up to them. I don't seem to have any issue with Wisconsin Rapids being used as the 8-Man Final. Central location within the state for all the 8-man programs. Plus I can mention that Michigan holds their 8-Man Championships (104 teams in 2 divisions to boot) in the Superior Dome in Marquette while all the 11-man games are held at Ford Field in Detroit. In short I think 8-man is very close to a switch on a few things stated above but with more teams slated to drop down, that could accelerate that switch. 63% of the 11 man football teams make the WIAA football playoffs, while only 26% of 8 Man football teams make the playoffs in Wisconsin. It in not even comparable between 11 man and 8 man as far as playoff eligibility IMO If you reward OK effort, you will get OK effort. Only reward great effort! Being challenged is inevitable, being defeated is optional!
amped0808Hall of Fame16,539 posts amped0808Hall of Fame What I was trying to tie my point to is that right now expanding the playoff field to 32 would put it closer to over 50% of the field making it in (Pending non-eligible teams with that mathwork). I would think we need the number closer to 80-85 teams in theory before they move to a full 32 team field. 2013 WSN HOF Inductee, 2014 Derek Lendosky Poster of the YearWissports HOF CoordinatorOnce a Warrior, Always a WarriorWLC Men's Tennis CoachWLC Men's Tennis: 2013-14 Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference Tournament Champions (13-10)Twitter
badgerfan15Varsity258 posts badgerfan15Varsity 63% of the 11 man football teams make the WIAA football playoffs, while only 26% of 8 Man football teams make the playoffs in Wisconsin. It in not even comparable between 11 man and 8 man as far as playoff eligibility IMO Reducing 11-man down to 6 divisions and expanding 8-man playoffs to 32 teams seems to make the most sense at this time. You could argue 24 teams in 8-man, but dealing with a bye seems less than ideal.
brettwhoVarsity136 posts brettwhoVarsity What I was trying to tie my point to is that right now expanding the playoff field to 32 would put it closer to over 50% of the field making it in (Pending non-eligible teams with that mathwork). I would think we need the number closer to 80-85 teams in theory before they move to a full 32 team field. I don't know why 8-man should have to wait until they have 80-85 teams. If they had 32 teams in the playoffs this year they would still have a lower percent of playoff qualifiers than 11-man has. With the 2 year commitments in football, the WIAA knows how many teams are going to be participating in 8-man. Why weren't they proactive and expand to 32 teams this cycle to bring 8-man playoff qualifying percentage in line with 11-man?
traviswilsonAdministrator4,711 posts traviswilsonAdministrator As you may know, the WIAA website no longer provides a playoff field for 8 Man football. I've done my best to sort eligible 8-man teams by win percentage and defeated opponents record. Based off of this method, I also am predicting the next two weeks of 8 man games and thus the 8-man playoff field. Feel free to make a copy of the embedded spreadsheets to make your own predictions. I've shared this with my fellow coaches, but thought that it would be valuable to the larger 8-man community. If you find it useful, feel free to buy me a drink at the clinic. Here it is: http://wi8man.com Now, here's my chance to get on a bit of a soapbox. The following are my views and not the views of any district I've ever worked for or coached for. The way the WIAA handles 8-Man football is shameful. I don't always like throwing around words like "equity", but I cannot understand how the situation we find ourselves in is equitable. The young men and women who play 8-man football not only get one fewer regular season game, but have almost half the chance of getting an opportunity to play in the post season. Not to mention that as the red-headed stepchild of high school football, we don't even get to play our championship game at Camp Randall. Any time these concerns are brought up, we are dismissed. 8-man football is approximately as large as any other division, yet we have only a 16 team playoff. This year, there will be teams who have a 6-2 record who do not make playoffs. It is theoretically possible that a team undefeated in their conference could not make the playoffs. There are very good teams that will not be in the playoffs this year. The only conclusion that I can draw is that the WIAA doesn't care about 8-man football. I have no evidence to the contrary. There have been plans and proposals to expand the 8-player playoffs, and it seems there's good momentum for that. Regarding season length and postseason games, keep in mind that the 8-game season and shorter playoffs were by request of the 8-player community. I haven't heard a lot of commentary on changing that. The Packers/Badgers/Brewers are like your children; you don't love them because they're good, you love them because they're yours.
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Madtom StonecatFreshman7 posts Madtom StonecatFreshman What I was trying to tie my point to is that right now expanding the playoff field to 32 would put it closer to over 50% of the field making it in (Pending non-eligible teams with that mathwork). I would think we need the number closer to 80-85 teams in theory before they move to a full 32 team field. 80-85? Where does that number come from? My count gives 366 11-man teams according to the conference realignment plan: https://www.wiaawi.org/Portals/0/PDF/Conference%20Realignment/2024-25Football/11-PlayerFBplan2024-25.pdf. The astute will recognize that 366 divided by seven is 52.3 (to three significant figures). There are 50 playoff eligible 8-man schools (in total, there are 67 schools in 8-man; off the top of my head, five don't have varsity programs and twelve are larger than 200). In the next cycle, there is a net gain of three overall schools to 8-man, but we are also losing three schools who do not have varsity programs - bringing us to potentially 56 playoff eligible schools in 8-man (70 total, I believe). Meanwhile, 11-man will actually shrink by it looks like five schools. So in 2026, we're looking at an average of 51.6 schools per 11-man division and 56 eligible 8-man programs. Note, that 56 is greater than 51.6, but for all intents and purposes, 8-man is the size of every other division, except that some very small schools get the privilege of playing against one of the 12 schools with enrollments over 200 - schools that many would argue should not be playing 8-man football. And while it is true that having matchups like Shell Lake or Phillips vs. Mellen is not great, what are these schools supposed to do? Drive three hours for a conference game (oh wait - Shell Lake kind of does that now with this fantastic conference realignment, but that's another story)? The trend in the North is for schools to transition to 8-man. That pattern is not going away, no matter how much some in the south would like it to. 80-85? At a total of 361 schools, four 11-man divisions bring us to 90.3 schools per division. Five 11-man divisions would bring us to 72.2 schools per division. Even if the dream of eliminating 8-man that some of you seem to have was truly achieved and all schools were forced back into 11-man adding the 70 teams gives a total of 431 teams. With seven divisions, that's only 61.6 teams per division. The astute will note that 32 doubled is 64 - we will still have below .500 teams in the playoffs. Here's some more quick math to have in the back of your mind - 431 divided by 6 is 71.8. 431 divided by 5 is 86.2. Let's even consider the more realistic idea of the twelve schools above 200 enrollment (not going to happen - keep dreaming) moving back to 11-man football. 373 divided by 7 is 53.29. That isn't going to move the needle. The WIAA finds itself in quite a pickle, and they've tried to make 8-man the scapegoat. We have currently have seven divisions, but to fill brackets we need teams with records below .500 to be in the playoffs. We are not adding teams. New school districts are not being created. 11-man teams are co-oping or dropping to 8-man. Even 8-man teams are co-oping. Participation is down. It's the way it is. In the last decade 69% of districts have declining enrollment we can't wish that away. So, what do we do? We can't reduce the number of divisions - the WIAA needs Division 7. Eliminate Division 7 and many, rightfully so, cry foul - opportunities are being taken away from kids. The conspiratorial might point out that Division 4 and 5 schools REALLY need Division 7 so that certain private schools can get bumped up to only Division 6 with competitive balance, but I digress. WIAA certainly can't cut the playoff field for everyone to 24 or even 16 teams per division, as that would also take away opportunities from kids. And, as we have seen, even if we were to eliminate 8-man all together, we don't add enough schools to fix the problem. Only one 8-man team is making the switch to 11-man for the next cycle, and none of the 12 playoff ineligible teams above 200 enrollment are making the switch. The reason, in my opinion, and based on conversations with coaches at these schools is that they are staying 8-man because 8-man is the only viable option to have football in their school and/or their projected enrollment will make them playoff eligible in the near future. So, to summarize my original point, we find ourselves with the following facts: My only conclusion is that the WIAA and people who don't think that 8-man football is real football are blatantly discriminating against rural northern schools. If we want to go back to the glory days pre-D7 where it was tough to get into the playoffs, at least give 8-man a 24 team bracket, those percentages at least kind of match the old days. But if we do that, let's be prepared to move to a 24 team bracket for 11-man as well. All 8-man schools want is to be treated the same as 11-man schools. And that includes a state game at Camp Randall.
brettwhoVarsity136 posts brettwhoVarsity There have been plans and proposals to expand the 8-player playoffs, and it seems there's good momentum for that. Regarding season length and postseason games, keep in mind that the 8-game season and shorter playoffs were by request of the 8-player community. I haven't heard a lot of commentary on changing that. The problem is "good momentum" doesn't solve the problem in the original post. What would have solved the problem is competent leadership and foresight by the folks at the WIAA. They have all the information and data. They should have saw this issue coming and made changes to avoid it. Now, due to lack of foresight by six-figure salary suits sitting in an office in Stevens Point, kids will be denied the opportunity to play a deserved playoff game simply because their school participates in 8-man rather than 11-man.
Madtom StonecatFreshman7 posts Madtom StonecatFreshman There have been plans and proposals to expand the 8-player playoffs, and it seems there's good momentum for that. Regarding season length and postseason games, keep in mind that the 8-game season and shorter playoffs were by request of the 8-player community. I haven't heard a lot of commentary on changing that. 8-man officially came back in 2012. It's been 12 years since then. The landscape has changed. I'll bet a straw poll of 8-man coaches would indicate that they would like a longer season and an expanded playoff.
Madtom StonecatFreshman7 posts Madtom StonecatFreshman I get the point of expanding the playoff field. I mean that should be a serious topic of discussion going forward to open it up to 32 teams but right now we only have 63 total 8-man programs. Also mind you there is a bunch of schools that are well above the 8-man cutline that aren't eligible for postseason play along with a few (WIAA needs to do a better job vetting teams that are just starting up athletic programs) that don't even have a football program up and running that trims it further. As for a nine game schedule, I would also think there has to be a bit more teams before that becomes a thing. Can't have scheduling nightmares because of a lack of teams. As someone that has known a school's football coaching staff that switched their program to 8-man this year, they had to schedule a UP team because it was hard to bring someone up to them. I don't seem to have any issue with Wisconsin Rapids being used as the 8-Man Final. Central location within the state for all the 8-man programs. Plus I can mention that Michigan holds their 8-Man Championships (104 teams in 2 divisions to boot) in the Superior Dome in Marquette while all the 11-man games are held at Ford Field in Detroit. In short I think 8-man is very close to a switch on a few things stated above but with more teams slated to drop down, that could accelerate that switch. How about the location of the Minnesota 9-Man championship game? The Texas 6-Man championship game? The point is that many states play their reduced player championship in the same location as the other divisions. But I'm sure kids from Wisconsin would rather play in Wisconsin Rapids than at Camp Randall.
traviswilsonAdministrator4,711 posts traviswilsonAdministrator The problem is "good momentum" doesn't solve the problem in the original post. What would have solved the problem is competent leadership and foresight by the folks at the WIAA. They have all the information and data. They should have saw this issue coming and made changes to avoid it. Now, due to lack of foresight by six-figure salary suits sitting in an office in Stevens Point, kids will be denied the opportunity to play a deserved playoff game simply because their school participates in 8-man rather than 11-man. You understand that the WIAA Executive Staff does not make that decision. The school administrators on the Board of Control do. The Packers/Badgers/Brewers are like your children; you don't love them because they're good, you love them because they're yours.
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traviswilsonAdministrator4,711 posts traviswilsonAdministrator 8-man officially came back in 2012. It's been 12 years since then. The landscape has changed. I'll bet a straw poll of 8-man coaches would indicate that they would like a longer season and an expanded playoff. I believe they polled just a couple years ago. You can contact Don Kendzior if you'd like more info or to voice your feelings. The Packers/Badgers/Brewers are like your children; you don't love them because they're good, you love them because they're yours.
10/22/2010 -- 598,210 pageviews for WSN
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Madtom StonecatFreshman7 posts
satinwoodAll-Area1,080 posts satinwoodAll-Area The artificial cutoff for playoff eligibility should go away. It's not like those larger schools are dominating the 8-man division. The WIAA creates more divisions in tournament play in other sports under the guise of giving more teams access to the state tournament. Why cut schools out, regardless of 8-man or 11-man? If anything, you could have 32 teams qualify in 8-man, and then make two 16-team brackets by enrollment (if there is concern about school size). Call them Division 8 (for 8-man!) A and B (or Large and Small). However it may be, I am on board with more teams in the 8-man playoffs.